Hi Anne, I am fine with anything, but I'd appreciate if we could choose one with IRC integration. Thanks, Sebastien ________________________________ From: Hunt, James O [james.o.hunt@intel.com] Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 8:28 AM To: cseader@suse.com Cc: kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io Subject: Re: [kata-dev] Proposal to migrate to a Slack alternative I have never used it but what about gitter.im<http://gitter.im>? That also seems to be OSS and has IRC integration. Cheers, James. 2018-03-23 14:40 GMT+00:00 Cameron Seader <cseader@suse.com<mailto:cseader@suse.com>>: Hi Anne, Rocket Chat is fine. In fact my team uses it quite often. Sometimes its sluggish, but for those that like a GUI well then it does provide a slack like experience. It doesn't however have IRC abilities like slack has. Where would we host it? -Cameron On 03/23/2018 08:36 AM, Anne Bertucio wrote: Hi all, With some of the changes to Slack’s terms of service and integrations with IRC, I wanted to raise the idea of moving to an open source alternative to Slack. The driver behind having an alternative to IRC was 1) some find IRC intimidating 2) some are more likely to get involved in our community if there’s a communication GUI that they’re familiar with. One alternative would be Rocket.chat. I’d love to your thoughts on migrating and if anyone has experience with rocket chat or other platforms. Cheers, Anne Bertucio OpenStack Foundation anne@openstack.org<mailto:anne@openstack.org> | irc: annabelleB _______________________________________________ kata-dev mailing list kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io<mailto:kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io> http://lists.katacontainers.io/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kata-dev -- Cameron Seader Technology Strategist SUSE cs@suse.com<mailto:cs@suse.com> (P)+1 208.572.0095<tel:(208)%20572-0095> (M)+1 208.420.2167<tel:(208)%20420-2167> _______________________________________________ kata-dev mailing list kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io<mailto:kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io> http://lists.katacontainers.io/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kata-dev -- James --- https://clearcontainers.github.io / https://katacontainers.io/ Open Source Technology Center Intel Corporation (UK) Ltd. - Co. Reg. #1134945 - Pipers Way, Swindon SN3 1RJ.

On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 03:42:03PM +0000, Fox, Kevin M wrote:

Knee jerk reaction: Oh no, not another thingy to install/watch.

Obligitory xkcd reference: https://xkcd.com/1810/

More serious though.... the chat system is about community. the smaller the community the less effective it is. If all of openstack or the k8s community went for a new system, that holds a lot more weight then if, say, kata containers, did it unilaterally.

Couple things: 1) I like that xkcd comic 2) I have the same initial reaction as Kevin here. Maybe I should look at the new ToC enforced, but as far as the myopic view of an end user, I feel like Slack does meet my needs well, and appreciate the number of other communities which also use the same (ie, ease of use and familiarity for people). -Eric

Thanks, Kevin

________________________________ From: Anne Bertucio [anne@openstack.org] Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 7:36 AM To: kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io Subject: [kata-dev] Proposal to migrate to a Slack alternative

Hi all,

With some of the changes to Slack’s terms of service and integrations with IRC, I wanted to raise the idea of moving to an open source alternative to Slack. The driver behind having an alternative to IRC was 1) some find IRC intimidating 2) some are more likely to get involved in our community if there’s a communication GUI that they’re familiar with.

One alternative would be Rocket.chat. I’d love to your thoughts on migrating and if anyone has experience with rocket chat or other platforms.

Cheers, Anne Bertucio OpenStack Foundation anne@openstack.org<mailto:anne@openstack.org> | irc: annabelleB

_______________________________________________ kata-dev mailing list kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io http://lists.katacontainers.io/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kata-dev

We have globally available logging here: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23kata-dev/ http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23kata-general/ I agree supporting that is a good requirement for any future chat solutions. Jonathan On March 23, 2018 17:30:42 "Adams, Eric" <eric.adams@intel.com> wrote: One requirement I would like to see is that the conversations get stored somewhere and are searchable. This is a limitation of IRC that forced me to setup ZNC as an IRC bouncer that logs everything but that is only useful for me. It is really helpful to search back through conversations on particular technologies to learn the history of why decisions were made. Thanks Eric -----Original Message----- From: Ernst, Eric [mailto:eric.ernst@intel.com] Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 9:14 AM To: Fox, Kevin M <Kevin.Fox@pnnl.gov> Cc: kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io Subject: Re: [kata-dev] Proposal to migrate to a Slack alternative On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 03:42:03PM +0000, Fox, Kevin M wrote: Knee jerk reaction: Oh no, not another thingy to install/watch. Obligitory xkcd reference: https://xkcd.com/1810/ More serious though.... the chat system is about community. the smaller the community the less effective it is. If all of openstack or the k8s community went for a new system, that holds a lot more weight then if, say, kata containers, did it unilaterally. Couple things: 1) I like that xkcd comic 2) I have the same initial reaction as Kevin here. Maybe I should look at the new ToC enforced, but as far as the myopic view of an end user, I feel like Slack does meet my needs well, and appreciate the number of other communities which also use the same (ie, ease of use and familiarity for people). -Eric Thanks, Kevin ________________________________ From: Anne Bertucio [anne@openstack.org] Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 7:36 AM To: kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io Subject: [kata-dev] Proposal to migrate to a Slack alternative Hi all, With some of the changes to Slack’s terms of service and integrations with IRC, I wanted to raise the idea of moving to an open source alternative to Slack. The driver behind having an alternative to IRC was 1) some find IRC intimidating 2) some are more likely to get involved in our community if there’s a communication GUI that they’re familiar with. One alternative would be Rocket.chat. I’d love to your thoughts on migrating and if anyone has experience with rocket chat or other platforms. Cheers, Anne Bertucio OpenStack Foundation anne@openstack.org<mailto:anne@openstack.org> | irc: annabelleB _______________________________________________ kata-dev mailing list kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io http://lists.katacontainers.io/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kata-dev _______________________________________________ kata-dev mailing list kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io http://lists.katacontainers.io/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kata-dev _______________________________________________ kata-dev mailing list kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io http://lists.katacontainers.io/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kata-dev

Graham hits on many of my concerns about Slack. Slack was built for organizations where everyone is an employee—was never intended for open source collaboration, and they’re not building for us as they build future features (or take existing ones away). A major concern I have with OSS projects using Slack is that it does not have the guardrails that help everyone feel safe in a community—for example, individuals cannot block individuals. Another concern is the lost historical knowledge through the lack of logging. We are already losing information through the message limit (although we capture it currently via eavesdrop on IRC). Logging is only available to paid accounts, and while they give steep discounts to nonprofits (open source projects housed at foundations meets those requirements), the per-user fee adds up to be nontrivial, and there are many better ways to spend those community dollars. User inertia is real, and “Oh no not another tool” is a downside to migrating. That said, I think there is a balance between defining our own principles as a community, and being pressured into the trends set by others. Anne Bertucio OpenStack Foundation anne@openstack.org | irc: annabelleB

On Mar 26, 2018, at 5:27 AM, Graham Hayes <gr@ham.ie> wrote:

On 24/03/18 03:22, Tao Peng wrote:

...

On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 10:36 PM, Anne Bertucio <anne@openstack.org> wrote:

...

Hi all,

With some of the changes to Slack’s terms of service and integrations with IRC, I wanted to raise the idea of moving to an open source alternative to Slack. Hi Anne,

Most of the container ecosystem communities are doing just fine with slack so I want to understand why we want an alternative. What changes to Slack’s terms of service would scare us away?

There is a few reasons:

1. Slack announced the IRC/XMPP gateway is going to be removed a. This means that a lot of peoples prefered clients will no longer work b. People are now forced to use the RAM / CPU hungry, proprietary Slack clients. 2. Slack just announced that workspace admins can now get access to private messages without notifying users that their chats were accessed. 3. Doing open source development in a closed source walled garden is not what all communities (or developers) want - supporting open standards is important.

Other communities are having these discussions as well, not just Kata.

...

...

The driver behind having an alternative to IRC was 1) some find IRC intimidating 2) some are more likely to get involved in our community if there’s a communication GUI that they’re familiar with.

I see these are cons of IRC but they are not the reasons to drop slack right?

Cheers, Tao

_______________________________________________ kata-dev mailing list kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io http://lists.katacontainers.io/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kata-dev

_______________________________________________ kata-dev mailing list kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io http://lists.katacontainers.io/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kata-dev

Slack org owners should have the ability to kick folks off a workspace, so while that doesn't let users block other users themselves, if someone is violating community standards, the owners of the project need to take action. Regarding historical knowledge, the CNCF folks worked with Slack on a solution for Kubernetes Slack to move to a paid plan, so I think they should do the work for other CNCF projects because history is important. -EJ On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Fox, Kevin M <Kevin.Fox@pnnl.gov> wrote:

It sounds like there are a lot of reasons to consider getting off slack. +1 for discussions around it.

-1 for doing it too much *here*. The Kubernetes and OpenStack communities should be doing it as a whole. Shouldn't this be done at the openstack-dev list or the openstack-tc? and some equivalent at k8s?

If kata-containers does it in isolation, then the solution kata-containers comes up with very well could isolate it from the other communities based on the other communities choices. Lets work together.

Thanks, Kevin ------------------------------ *From:* Anne Bertucio [anne@openstack.org] *Sent:* Monday, March 26, 2018 11:06 AM *To:* Graham Hayes *Cc:* kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io *Subject:* Re: [kata-dev] Proposal to migrate to a Slack alternative

Graham hits on many of my concerns about Slack. Slack was built for organizations where everyone is an employee—was never intended for open source collaboration, and they’re not building for us as they build future features (or take existing ones away).

A major concern I have with OSS projects using Slack is that it does not have the guardrails that help everyone feel safe in a community—for example, individuals cannot block individuals.

Another concern is the lost historical knowledge through the lack of logging. We are already losing information through the message limit (although we capture it currently via eavesdrop on IRC). Logging is only available to paid accounts, and while they give steep discounts to nonprofits (open source projects housed at foundations meets those requirements), the per-user fee adds up to be nontrivial, and there are many better ways to spend those community dollars.

User inertia is real, and “Oh no not another tool” is a downside to migrating. That said, I think there is a balance between defining our own principles as a community, and being pressured into the trends set by others.

Anne Bertucio OpenStack Foundation anne@openstack.org | irc: annabelleB

On Mar 26, 2018, at 5:27 AM, Graham Hayes <gr@ham.ie> wrote:

On 24/03/18 03:22, Tao Peng wrote:

On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 10:36 PM, Anne Bertucio <anne@openstack.org> wrote:

Hi all,

With some of the changes to Slack’s terms of service and integrations with IRC, I wanted to raise the idea of moving to an open source alternative to Slack.

Hi Anne,

Most of the container ecosystem communities are doing just fine with slack so I want to understand why we want an alternative. What changes to Slack’s terms of service would scare us away?

There is a few reasons:

1. Slack announced the IRC/XMPP gateway is going to be removed a. This means that a lot of peoples prefered clients will no longer work b. People are now forced to use the RAM / CPU hungry, proprietary Slack clients. 2. Slack just announced that workspace admins can now get access to private messages without notifying users that their chats were accessed. 3. Doing open source development in a closed source walled garden is not what all communities (or developers) want - supporting open standards is important.

Other communities are having these discussions as well, not just Kata.

The driver behind having an alternative to IRC was 1) some find IRC intimidating 2) some are more likely to get involved in our community if there’s a communication GUI that they’re familiar with.

I see these are cons of IRC but they are not the reasons to drop slack right?

Cheers, Tao

_______________________________________________ kata-dev mailing list kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io http://lists.katacontainers.io/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kata-dev

_______________________________________________ kata-dev mailing list kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io http://lists.katacontainers.io/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kata-dev

_______________________________________________ kata-dev mailing list kata-dev@lists.katacontainers.io http://lists.katacontainers.io/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kata-dev

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 4:22 AM, Doug Hellmann <doug@doughellmann.com> wrote:

Excerpts from Fox, Kevin M's message of 2018-03-26 19:23:32 +0000:

...

It sounds like there are a lot of reasons to consider getting off slack. +1 for discussions around it.

-1 for doing it too much *here*. The Kubernetes and OpenStack communities should be doing it as a whole. Shouldn't this be done at the openstack-dev list or the openstack-tc? and some equivalent at k8s?

The Kata group is not under TC governance and doesn't generally use openstack-dev for its community discussions, so this list feels like the appropriate place for the conversation to happen.

...

If kata-containers does it in isolation, then the solution kata-containers comes up with very well could isolate it from the other communities based on the other communities choices. Lets work together.

I don't think that's really what is happening, is it?

The Kata group made the decision when they joined the OpenStack Foundation to use Slack, which was different from what the existing OpenStack teams under TC governance have done. It's up to that group to reconsider (or not) that decision and choose another chat platform.

I would be interested to hear how the kubernetes and broader CNCF community view the changes to Slack, and I do think it's appropriate for the Kata folks to take that into consideration in their decision, though I hope the comments about cost, features, and openness are also considered.

Yes, I agree! How about we following what the CNCF community and the k8s community do toward these changes? I understand that we have concerns about Slack's new policy (thanks Graham!). Yet we'd better not migrate to something most of the container communities are missing. Such isolation can impact the attractiveness of the Kata project. Just my 2 cents. Cheers, Tao -- bergwolf@hyper.sh